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TML biweekly    Sun Jun 12 21:00:02 EDT 1994    Volume 46 : Issue 7

Today's topics:

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 632  7930 09-Jun-1994 Steven M Bonnev  Zaibatsu and Feudal Tech << I've been s
 632  7931 09-Jun-1994 tom@csvax1.ucc.  Re: Feudalism << Hi all,
 632  7932 09-Jun-1994 "Bruce Johnson"  TML: Feudal Technocracies << Bill,
 632  7933 09-Jun-1994 Steve Charlton/  Battleships, Frigates and Escorts << St
 632  7934 09-Jun-1994 George Herbert   Re: TML nightly: Msgs 7923-7929 V76#4  
 632  7935 10-Jun-1994 rancke@diku.dk   All: Coyns << James Kundert writes:
 632  7936 09-Jun-1994 Steven Gott      Regency force structures << I think tha
 632  7937 09-Jun-1994 Steven Gott      Military threats to the Regency << Off 
 632  7938 10-Jun-1994 Roger Sanger     FOR SALE:  Judges Guild, etc. << Dear E
 632  7939 10-Jun-1994 PSUAlum@aol.com  FICT/SCEN/AHIS : Shall Not Peris << FIC
 632  7940 10-Jun-1994 PSUAlum@aol.com  TNE, DES << TNE, DES
 632  7941 10-Jun-1994 PSUAlum@aol.com  GEN - Swold World bickering << I think 
 632  7942 10-Jun-1994 "Les Howie"      Lasers and other weapons << John Bogan 
 632  7943 10-Jun-1994 b.borich@genie.  ECONOMIC SURVEY DATA/SHIP SIZE <<     T

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bundle: 632
Archive-Message-Number: 7930
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 09:31:52 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: Zaibatsu and Feudal Tech

I've been seeing the terms "zaibatsu" and "keiretsu" tossed about
rather freely in the discussion on what "feudal technocracy" really
means in Traveller.  Just in case the only understanding of these
terms is coming from bad cyberpunk, here's a fairly lengthy except
from _The Japanese Today_ which hopefully explains some of this.
Incidentally, I highly recommend that book if you are interested 
in Japan and need a place to start, especially since I had to hack
up this essay a bit to hit the high points.

I also think that I should take a moment to point out that DGP's
WBH allows representative authority of a feudal technocracy to
range from a single ruler, through various types of councils, to
rule by the *demos*, so there should be a wide range of types of
feudal technocracies.  Be flexible!


from: _Traveller: The New Era_, 1993, p.188.

"Feudal Technocracy.  Government by specific individuals for those
 who agree to be ruled.  Relationships are based on the performance
 of technical activities which are mutually beneficial."
 

from: Reischauer, Edwin O.  _The Japanese Today_, 1988, p.305-7.

"In prewar times, the distinctive Japanese economic institution that
 most caught the attention of the outside world was the so-called
 *zaibatsu* system.  The term *zaibatsu* is perjorative, meaning 
 "financial clique".  It is specifically applied to certain giant 
 financial, commercial, and industrial combines but is loosely used for
 prewar Japanese big business in general.  [...]
 
"The zaibatsu came to control a very large part of the upper level of
 the Japanese economy [...] ...before long the government became 
 suspicious of the growing influence of big business... [...]
 
"It is ironic that after the war the American occupation in turn 
 attacked the zaibatsu for being the root cause of Japanese imperialism
 and on these grounds singled them out for destruction.  Their ownership
 was removed from the controlling families virtually without compensation,
 and the great combines were broken up into their component parts.  
 Before they could be further atomized in a traditional American "trust-
 busting" operation, the occupation's reform program was halted, leaving
 the larger corporate subunits of the original zaibatsu intact.  Since
 the occupation, these have gradually reassumed their old names [...] 
 and have drawn together in loose, informal associations, now known in
 Japan as *keiretsu*.
 
"Because of the existence of these keiretsu groupings, many observers
 have asserted that the zaibatsu system has been restored, but this is
 not correct.  The keiretsu form something like clubs, whose members
 may look first to each other for aid and cooperation before trying
 other sources. [...]  But these relations are by no means exclusive,
 and there is no central ownership and none of the rigid controls once
 excersised within a zaibatsu organization. [...]
 
" ...zaibatsu were typically under the control of a central holding
 company, largely owned by the original family.  The holding company
 controlled several major affiliates and these in turn a series of
 minor affiliates.  This sort of pyramiding of control is common enough
 in the West, but what made the Japanese case unique was the fact that
 the controlling company often lacked majority ownership....  Control,
 however, was exercised through other means.  The affiliate would
 probably be completely dependent on the banking, shipping, and trading
 facilities of the combine; interlocking directors were common; 
 executives were switched around among the component firms as though
 they were members of a unified bureaucracy; the advantages and prestige
 of belonging to a large zaibatsu combine were great; and a strong sense
 of personal loyalty to the combine permeated the leadership, much as in
 a pre-modern feudal domain.  Young executives joined a zaibatsu 
 enterprise for a lifetime career.
 
"A typical zaibatsu organization was not like the contemporary American
 conglomerates, which bring together entirely unrelated corporations
 under the same ownership.  Instead, they were rational outgrowths of
 evolving economic activity and therefore are better described as 
 combines.  They tended to cluster around a central bank that financed
 the various activities of the combine.  These functions often stood in
 a vertical relationship.  For example, a series of seperate companies
 might mine a certain ore, fashion it into manufactured products, 
 transport those abroad on the combine's shipping line, and sell them 
 abroad and purchase the needed raw materials for the whole process
 through the combines "general trading company" [...], while all of
 these different stages of the operation would be financed by the 
 combine's bank."
 
I hope this helps out a bit!  

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>

------------------------------

Bundle: 632
Archive-Message-Number: 7931
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 1994 16:45:34 BST
From: tom@csvax1.ucc.ie
Subject: Re: Feudalism

Hi all,
        in the recent discussion of feudalism and feudal technocracy it seems
there has been some talking at cross-purposes.

        Some relevant powers of a feudal king which have not been mentioned
are the powers to grant new titles and existing unheld titles and the
administration of disputes between vassals( and hence law). This power is
significant when it comes to the sharing-out of newly obtained resources,
whether from conquest, purchase or legal skulduggery. 

The feudal system is inherently unstable, especially in times of transition 
when there may be no clear heir or successor. (this sounds familiar...oops
:-) ). It involves a continual struggle for power between the king and the
vassals and between the vassals, as the king attempts to safeguard his
position by centralising power, and the vassals attempt to strengthen
their positions, and reduce the king's power (consciously or otherwise).

        David Johnson has been alluding to the "strong barons" version of
feudalism where the vassals are in a position to pick and choose their
king(IMHO). Hans Rancke has written about a "strong king" version of
feudalism where the vassals are due to circumstances stuck with the
current king, like it or not. Both these versions are historically 
recorded examples of the feudal system in action.
 
        In the first version the king's power is limited to what the vassals 
will accept. This may even go so far as to the king being relegated to a 
figurehead. The vassals are most definitely the owners of their feifs and will
strenuously resist interference in them by the king( or anyone else for that
matter). Here the vassals may form a united block behind a figurehead king
(oligarchy-like) or may squabble disastrously as an ineffectual king's calls
for peace and unity are ignored. In the latter case the king may fall and
total balkanisation may ensue if no resolution is reached.

In the second version the king is most definitely boss, with overwhelming
support from the majority of his vassals. In this position the king is 
very powerful, and effectively does control 'everything'. He can introduce
laws strengthening his rule, declare rebellious vassals to be outlaws and 
strip them of their holding,(to be awarded to loyal followers), and pretty much
do as he likes. If this continues for long enough the government may change
to another type, such as a dictatorship. (In this version of feudalism all
land WAS ultimately ruled by the king, and doled out to his loyal vassals).

The normal feudal position is between these two extremes. The king is 
powerful and has significant latitude of action, but must listen to his
vassals and be careful not to upset the majority of them too much. 
The vassals wish stability and will follow the king unless he becomes
too unreasonable or overbearing in his rulings.

David wishes to prove that Sacnoth should rule the Sword Worlds by virtue of
its TL advantage over the official ruling planet, Gram. While is certainly
possible for this change to occur, it is by no means automatic. There are
many other relevant factors which are not specified and which would affect
the outcome. It is possible to set up a campaign to justify almost any 
prejudice a referee has. Maybe Sacnoth has a policy of appeasement so they 
are not the ones bombed by an attacking force. Maybe there is something in
the atmosphere or soil of Sacnoth that makes the inhabitants less aggressive,
or conversely the inhabitants of Gram are more aggressive. Maybe the Zhodani
are mind-controlling the Sacnothians into acquiescence etc, etc. Anything can
be justified, nothing is automatic.

Hope my contribution to this thread makes sense,
                                                Tom

  Tom O'Neill  |   Tom@CSVAX1.UCC.IE        SCCS6085@IRUCCVAX.UCC.IE 
- ---------------!--------------------------------------------------------------
                    Fact is stranger than fiction

------------------------------

Bundle: 632
Archive-Message-Number: 7932
From: "Bruce Johnson" <JOHNSON@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
Date:         Thu, 9 Jun 1994 09:38:24 MST
Subject:      TML: Feudal Technocracies

Bill,

        And only a few weeks ago people were arguing that TML was 
moribund!   Excellent post!

        A few nits to pick, though.  Many of the examples you give of 
feaudalism, such as corporate feudalism, are already present in the 
government type structure, such as the corporate state.  I think the 
critical difference is the lack of or highly limited societal mobility.  A 
common thread throughout all your examples is the codification of 
position as hereditary...I think that this could serve as the sole 
definition of a feudal state, and the basis of that segregation, military, 
contract, medical or whatever is less important.  

        Indeed many of your examples are not precisely feudal in 
nature, but more like technocracies, ie: the technical or scientific elite 
holding power.

        A feudal society was as marked by the responsibilities of the 
higher classes to the lower as by their rights...all power derived from 
the bottom, in reality...just look at the restoration of the Meijii 
emperor over the Shogunate in 19th century Japan.  That change was 
spearheaded by some rather small, rural provinces.

        Since, whether GDW based the Sword Worlds entire or only part 
on Piper's book, I re-read Space Viking the other day.  In it the 
protagonist (Prince Trask) expresses surprise that an outsider 
declared his (very classic land and production based) feudal society as 
a tyranny.  Trask than explains that no one has any power that is not 
explicitly granted by the people below, and all that has to be done to 
eliminate a tyranny is withhold the support necessary.  In fact, this is 
very much like European 'classical' feudalism...The king theoretically 
wielded great power, but only as long as he held the support of the 
lesser nobles, who only wielded their power with the support of those 
below, etc. because the true power...armies, were not standing, but 
composed of all those lower knights and barons, who quite freely 
looked out for their own hides.  The pledged fealty to the king, but that 
oath was binding both ways...the king had to act to their benefit, or he 
had no power.

        This is really only possible in lower populations, where the 
lowest tiers of the society still wields enough political power to 
make a difference.  This argues forcefully against large population 
feudal states.  The Japanese example I had mentioned before was not 
the best.  By the time of the Meijii restoration, the Shogunate had 
evolved from a true military-based feudal state to a giant 
bureauocracy, hereditarily determined, to be sure, but still a 
bureauocracy.

Bruce Johnson
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu (work :-(
bej@gas.uug.arizona.edu (play :-)

My opinions, All Mine! 

------------------------------

Bundle: 632
Archive-Message-Number: 7933
From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
Date:  9 Jun 94  9:31:46 
Subject: Battleships, Frigates and Escorts

Steve Bonneville (bonnevil@mermaid,micro.umn.edu) has an interesting
 idea in his rapid-fire anti-missile laser.  He suggested that this weapon
system would be an ideal system to mount on a Battleship to defaeat huge
clouds of missiles launched by escorts.

About a week ago, there was a small TML furor over what role (if any) a
frigate class ship would have in an Imperial Fleet.  In the US Navy, a
Frigate is a screening vessel, used for anti-missile, anti-air and anti-sub
defense.  Perhaps Frigates would play a similar role in an Imperial Fleet.
A Frigate would be a small (5,000 to 10,000 tons displacement) ship,
equipped with long-range sensors and defensive laser batteries.  To aid
in its anti-missile role, it would also be equipped with the anti-missile
lasers.  It would also carry a large number of EMS jamming suites, either
on the ship or in the form of remote drones. 

In this configuration, a Frigate would also make an admirable space
minesweeper.  Its small size might allow it to avoid sensor lock from the
mines, and its weapons would already be configured for targeting and
destroying large numbers of missiles/mines quickly.

(Of course, this assumes everybody else enjoys laying fields of independent
ship's missiles as mines, like I do to my PCs from time to time).

This still leaves the question about what escorts do in a fleet.  I think
anything smaller than a destroyer is going to be of very limited usefulness
in a fleet action.  I think the 'scrubbing' of surface features would be
a fighter mission, not a escort mission.  Escorts could launch clouds of
missiles, but I think this would be better served with a purpose-built
design (something like the Brilliant Lances Missile Corvette, but with
more launchers).  

In reality, destroyer escorts would certainly be of use in small
ship actions and actions against civilian or paramilitary ships, but in actual
fleet actions escorts would be relegated to acting as security elements on
the edges of fleet formations, and acting as sensor platforms and 
communications links.  They would still be very useful for chasing nosy
PCs away from fleet formations.

This does not reflect the views of my employers.  They are so heavily
armored as to be impenetrable to all but the Death Star main gun.


------------------------------

Bundle: 632
Archive-Message-Number: 7934
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 7923-7929 V76#4 
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 1994 22:04:28 -0700
From: George Herbert <gwh@crl.com>


Ralph writes:
>Black Globes used as solar arrays seem to absorb one heck of a lot
>of energy. In the habitable zone, a gigantic size globe will absorb
>1/10 (1200^2) = 144,000MW!! Over one single turn, this will be
>1800x144,000 = 259 million Mj - try absorbing that lot into a HPG
>without overload.

If they weren't so expensive, I can just see this tiny little missile
with a BG generator and capacitor and HEPLAR drive and guidance...
no powerplant, it uses the BG and caps/HPG/whatever and then does
little bursts of accelleration... and then rams.

>5) Why did GDW have to go and make fusion weapons non-viable as space
>weaponry anymore? Grumble moan grumble. Have to make my OWN rules now.
>*sigh*

They're perfectly viable, once they get big enough... and with some
minor rules bends, you can do some really nifty-neato things with them.

- -george william herbert
gwh@crl.com  

------------------------------

Bundle: 632
Archive-Message-Number: 7935
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: All: Coyns
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 07:51:47 +0100 (METDST)

James Kundert writes:
>Perhaps an irregular dirt clod or a symbolic plant growing from the
>ground for Soil.  

I did think about this, but I like my notion that these six represent the
Droyne concept of elements. If they do then Soil is more representative
of all kinds of ground surfaces than of argricultural land only.

>The few Coyn faces we've seen suggest an extremely
>symbolic style, IMHO.  

Some of them, like the flame, the sigma wave, and the ice crystal, yes.
But the 'full-body representation of a human' seem pretty direct. That's
one reason why I decided that the six small pictures of the Droyne castes
could concievably be on the coyns.

>Since the major races eventually replaced these, they may also represent
>specific forms of danger, or specific concerns that the Droyne must
>watch for.  Grandfather replaced the original Coyns with new ones that
>had different pictures but meant much the same things.  

Interesting idea. I'll see if I can make something of it.

Steven M Bonneville writes:
>The concept for an Ancient-era coyn for Eskayloyt is interesting, but
>it should probably be expressed as "Homeworld", since presumably at
>that point it had not yet been lost. 

Oh sure. But then, the Phoenix presumably wasn't caled Phoenix either. 
This is just a translation. Eskaoyt is what a human archeologist would
cal it if he ever figured it out.

>Also, the Ancient period lasted long enough that it's possible that the 
>"Human" and "Vargr" coyns were added before the Final War; humans, at 
>least, were fairly well integrated into quite a number of Ancient societies 

Agreed. I don't think the Vargr would make it  -  at that time they were just
one of a number of projects, confined to one world (In my Traveler universe,
at least, the Ancients tried other animals as subject for uplifting, but most
of them failed and none apart from the Vargr achieved major status (there's
one planet in my Foreven Sector with a race uplifted from otters)). But the
humans could have. However, I decided on the assumption that the coyns were
less important to the Ancients  -  more important than just cards, but not
as important as when the very continuation of your species depend on them.
So I've assumed that they were not modified in Ancient times. Entirely a
matter of choice, of course.

>>3) Grandfather modified the coyns on later visits and introduced the Aslan,
>>   Hiver and K'kree coyns (at least). [_Secret of The Ancients_ p 32].
> 
>Note that all six species represented on the coyns are important powers.
>Yaskoydray didn't accidentally pick a "minor" race that didn't make it.
>And of those six, five developed hyperdrive independently.  It makes one
>wonder if he didn't use something like the Zhodani core artifact to peer
>into the future.  

For my part I abhor the causality violation implicit in precognition 
(unless the precognition is merely really good extrapolation ability).
So I assume that the Aslan coyn didn't get introduced until the Aslans
were already into space in a big way. As far as I'm concerned Grand-
daddy (or, in my universe, the mysterious beings behind the Grandfather 
Legend) made one of his every-10,000-year visits to our universe around
- -1000 and updated the coyns at the time.

>Or tamper with _TRS Pathfinder_ so that the Aslan got 
>jump drive just before they could blow themselves into oblivion.  

That is another possibility that I've considered, but why would Gramps
bother?

>>Voyages         A sailing ship.
> 
>Or a STL starship -- the pre-Ancient Droyne did have tech-10 without jump
>drive for thousands of years before the Ancient period; they even had a
>couple of interstellar colonies.  

True. But if the six lost coins really was hunting animals then the other
coyns were propably made up at a time when hunting was still important to
the Droyne. 
 
>Also, note some interesting coyn relationships from the table:
> 
>Genesis | Aspiration | Sacrifice | Defeat | Death | Achievement
>   The life cycle.  Observe the droyne lesson; one is born, dreams,
>   makes sacrifices (for the common good?), meets eventual defeat,
>   then death, but *then* attains true achievement.  Defeat and death
>   are not the victor.  Is this droyne philosophy peeking out?  Or
>   even a droyne concept of the after-life?  Interesting.

A very interesting idea! However, that would mean that Sacrifice couldn't
depict a krinaytsui ceremony. What could it be instead?

> Darkness | Cold | Noise | Signal | Heat | Light
>   A progressively more positive line of "energy" or "positive entropy".
>   Note how the pairs work.  The "Void--Fire" series also may work like
>   this.

Interesting. 

> Beast | Mercenary | Voyages | Justice | Chance | Phoenix
>   Think of this like the "energy" sextet.  It would then pair from
>   closest to most extreme as:  Voyages/Justice, Merc/Chance, Beast/Phoenix.

This one seems a bit strained. But an interesting idea, nonetheless.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir


------------------------------

Bundle: 632
Archive-Message-Number: 7936
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 23:36:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steven Gott <sgott@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Regency force structures

I think that the rebellion will have an impact on regency force 
structures but I think that the rebellion's influence is minimal compared 
to the influence of the black war and Virus.

Imagine if you will that some common item in your life was discovered to 
be deadly.  Take light bulbs for example, suppose tommorrow morning you 
discover that having a common ordinary screw in light bulb turned on in 
your presence WILL KILL YOU!!!  Naturally people wouldn't use them 
anymore.  In time another method of illumination would be discovered that 
would not be hazardous.  Converting over to this new illumination method 
will be very expensive though.  Imagine getting rid of all of the light 
bulbs.  It's just too big to really do...

Now put yourself in the Regency.  Virus has made every piece of 
electronics potentially dangerous.  Maybe it will get infected and try to 
wipe you out.  Maybe it will just hold an egg to infect something 
bigger.  The threat Virus poses is very real.  Dealing with this threat 
will profoundly change the Regency.  Think of all of the computers and 
electronic they must have.  Why to convert them to safer configurations 
could take decades...

Any formation of Regency Military Forces must have an Electronic Warfare 
Unit.  This unit would provide Virus protection in addition to more 
traditional EW functions.  I imagine it would also have to have some 
electronic fabrication assets as well to repair dammaged electronic 
devices and to create "on the fly" new virus resistant electronic 
configurations.  The also might have a few nasty viruses in bottles to 
unleash on opponnents.

food for thought,
Steven Gott
Seattle, WA

------------------------------

Bundle: 632
Archive-Message-Number: 7937
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 23:39:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steven Gott <sgott@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Military threats to the Regency

Off the cuff I can only think of the following

Vargar
Aslan
Zhodani
Virus

can anybody think of any others?

Steven Gott
Seattle, WA

------------------------------

Bundle: 632
Archive-Message-Number: 7938
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 01:15:32 -0700
From: rodge@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger)
Subject: FOR SALE:  Judges Guild, etc.



Dear Everyone,

I've come across some more spares:

Tancred (CT adventure from Judges Guild)
Darthanon Queen (CT adventure from Judges Guild)
Supplement 13 - Veterans (GDW)
Adventure 9 - Nomads of the World Ocean (GDW)
Adventure 11 - Murder on Arcturus Station (GDW)
Double Adventure 4 - Marooned / Marooned Alone (GDW)
Double Adventure 5 - Chamax Plague / Horde (GDW)

All of the above were written for Classic Traveller.

Let me know if you are interested.

Rodge.

------------------------------

Bundle: 632
Archive-Message-Number: 7939
From: PSUAlum@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 07:33:07 EDT
Subject: FICT/SCEN/AHIS : Shall Not Peris

FICT/SCEN/AHIS : Shall Not Perish - Government

 Wes Esser <wesley.esser@hd62.haledorr.com> posted a massive undertaking in
the
form of his vision of the Rgency government.  The majority of his
masterpiece is quite well thought out.  In particular the idea of a
planetary leaning in the one legislative arm and a population-based
slant in the other, the short take on the executive branch is sensible
and to the point, and the placement of the Regent in the scheme of
things.  Some points follow that I do wish to take issue with:

- - District courts: while matching the lowest level courts with the
Senatorial Districts I think there would be some basis for Planetary
Courts either in place of or in addition to these District Courts.
This would keep much of the local agenda from being decided by those
from different worlds.  This also would save on transportation costs.
At any level are jurors chosen in a manner similar to that in the
United Sates?  If so it is far less costly to move people about on a
single world (or system) than it would be to transport them one or
more parsecs, not to mention the time involved.  Think also of cost in
travel incurred by legal representation that need to travel to a
different system to participate in cases - or does the court travel to
the different planets to hear cases?  Obviously this applies to those
districts encompassing multiple systems.

- - Senate term length: 10 years seems like a long term.  Personally I'd
favor four or five year terms.  I guess I'm just a product of my
environment :) (check the trailer to see where)

- - Military: I agree that the military is not one of the branches of the
gov't but it does have some influence in the governing of the Regency
- - especially considering the quarantine and rapproachment with the
Zhos.  BTW does the Regency (and formerly the Imperium) have a
separate police force or is the military, particularly the army and
navy, given the task of enforcing laws?  Also shouldn't that be C-in-C
of the REGENCY Navy and Supreme Marshal of the REGENCY Army?



PBJuzyk                             | 'Most plans don't even survive
Reading, PA, USA                    |  contact with Reality'
Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8) |   -Hammer Lanthrop, *Smash & Grab*


------------------------------

Bundle: 632
Archive-Message-Number: 7940
From: PSUAlum@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 07:35:33 EDT
Subject: TNE, DES

TNE, DES

James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us> &
"Les Howie"  <lhowie@Prograph.Com>
write about heavily armored ships.


I also don't get the 'Fisher' reference.

>Overloading point-defenses and scrubbing surface features.  The
>standard missile in TNE is capable of a lot of mayhem, and will scrub
>surface bits off of _any_ ship.  The more ships (of any size) you've
>got firing these things at the enemy, the less capable the enemy will
>be to respond.

An improved method of achieving this objective, IMHO, would seem to be a
carrier/tended equiped with a number of remotely-piloted vehicles guided
from the mother ship.  This would allow the delivery systems to carry
the same punch with better maneuver performance as space for crew and
life-support would not be needed.

Regarding the ship classifications I like the proposed scheme that
battleships carry the heaviest weapons available at a given tech level
but modified to include armor in sufficient quantity to prevent turret
(& possibly bay) weapon penetration.  Cruisers would be armed similar to
battleships but without the full armor.  Lighter ships (destroyers,
frigates) would probably suffice with bay weapons and escorts and
cutters might only be expected to carry turreted weapons.

To add my Cr2's worth to the SDB argument - ships are tough to come by,
and they are expensive.  TNE pirate ships typically are modified
merchants and warships valued around MCr200-225.  As such one SDB coming
to the aid of a merchant harassed by one or two pirates is a definite
threat.  Also in the post re. protection of shipping lanes while the SDB
must maneuver to the location of the pirate the victim should be running
to the SDB and unless grappled and thrust applied in a different
direction will continue to do so thus decreasing the time until the
cavalry arrives on the scene.



PBJuzyk                             | 'Most plans don't even survive
Reading, PA                         |  contact with Reality'
Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8) |   -Hammer Lanthrop, *Smash & Grab*


------------------------------

Bundle: 632
Archive-Message-Number: 7941
From: PSUAlum@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 07:38:49 EDT
Subject: GEN - Swold World bickering

I think this post might be one of the missing posts, if not 
please excuse me for wasting the bandwidth.


>  you started out by asking how come Gram was the leader of
> the Sword Worlds when Sacnoth was so much more powerful.

> Since then I've tried to defend the notion that the economic cycles
> are possible.

> I believe I've accepted that these cycles *might* exist and that if
> they do they would explain Gram's leadership of the Confederation.  My
> concern has been that I can't see what *causes* these techno-economic
> cycles (since we've agreed they have no `real world' parallel) and
> that I don't see how they explain the tech level disparities.


Perhaps the fluctuations in the SWs TLs are due to a variety of internal
causes.  I'm not entirely sure I understand the feudal technocracy govt
but suppose it allows for a large amount of 'infighting' among the
junior levels of the technocracy on each world.

This may only take the form of buying out each other's economic assets
on up to sabotage of various forms and possibly assassination and
warfare.  Suppose every so often these small manueverings among the
technocrats build to a particularly large crescendo that results in a
large loss of the economic/industrial infrastructure with a
corresponding drop in TL.

Furthermore perhaps this postulated internecine rivalry may be more
prevalent on some worlds (such as Sacnoth) than on others (Gram) which
causes more of an introspective world-view and prevents Sacnoth from
gaining political control of the Sword World governing body despite a
higher level of technological achievement.  In fact it isn't all that
difficult to imagine, given such a scenario, that Gram may very well
sponsor various acts of espionage and intrigue just to ensure their
position and also to see that Sacnoth doesn't come to power.

Just an idea that occurred to me while enjoying the "The Hans and David
Show."  :)



PBJuzyk                             | 'Most plans don't even survive
Reading, PA                         |  contact with Reality'
Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8) |   -Hammer Lanthrop, *Smash & Grab*


------------------------------

Bundle: 632
Archive-Message-Number: 7942
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 09:08:41 ADT
From: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@192.219.29.90>
Reply-To: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@Prograph.Com>
Subject: Lasers and other weapons

John Bogan (john.bogan@asb.com) writes
> Lasers should be limited to about 50 Mj/tech-level, which is an arbitrary
> limit,
> but is needed for game balance.  Joule for joule, lasers are more versatile
> than
> PA's or MG's and have a superior ability to deliver damage to the target.
> Allow them to compete directly, and there rapidly becomes no point to 
> building
> PA's and MG's.  Putting a limit on them keeps them at the low end of the
> weapons
> spectrum, where they have traditionally been in Traveller.

Perhaps, but lasers provide a solution to the question of how to arm a small
ship to have some impact against large ships.  You are right on the effect on
Traveller "tradition" however -- traditionally, HG fighters are so much 
twaddle.

The X-ray laser bothers me, however.  Unless my spreadsheet in completly wrong
(and it works for the book example) with an X-Ray laser I can punch full
power out to 80 hexes with a nominal (1 meter) focal array.  I would sooner
see some meaningful range depreciation.  On the other hand, if you make a 
set of technological assumptions, you should live the consequences.

For the lasers I am designing (6-8 Gj input energy) some limitation on power
transmission might make some sense.  As it is the light SDB I am designing
right now will look like a capaciter with an attitude -- mostly HPG's.

Because I do intend to design to the rules as written, pushing the envelope 
where needed.  If we all do that, we may find the tradeoffs between armour,
punch, and speed that the new rules impose.  If there are truely none, if 
there turn out to be no limitting factors, then we can talk about fixes.

In the meantime, do you have a sheet of factor 2000 armour you would like a 1m 
hole in? :-).

Les Howie
Prograph International


------------------------------

Bundle: 632
Archive-Message-Number: 7943
From: b.borich@genie.geis.com
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 12:41:00 UTC
Subject: ECONOMIC SURVEY DATA/SHIP SIZE

    This a section of an HIWG document created a couple of years ago. The
fomulas used are based on TCS formulas. However rumour has it that TCS
figures don't necessarily apply to the Imperium (or necessarily anything
else in the traveller universe).
    Therefore the best thing to do is maybe forget the TCS vs 5FW debate
and start anew by testing the TNE figures givenn in the RCEs sourcebook.
But that's my opinion.....
 
HIWG doc HD 44.01                            DATE: 3-May-90
by Tim Koors
 
ABSTRACT
        Economic statistics derived from the sector UWP listings in the
        GEnie library. Note that Traveller and MegaTraveller are trademarks
        owned by GDW. The sector listings are also owned.
 
NOTES:
An asterisk before a Sector name signifies there is system information missing
in that sector file.
 
'Urb' identifies 'urban systems' that are high population, high technology.
The population figures are given in millions.
Gross product is in trillion Imperial credits. (TL 15 credits.)
All Gross Subsector Product figures are given in Imperial Credits,
using the conversion table in Striker Book 2.
 
Starport ship capacity is given in millions of displacement tons.
Shipyard Capacity formula: capacity = total pop * (GM = 1) / 1000
 
Spinward Marches Sector                            Early     Average     High
Subsector      Systems  Urb      Pop  Gross Prod   A   B     A    B     A    B
CRONOR              24    1     9878      126.16    0   0     9    0     0    0
JEWELL              23    1    47540      198.77    0   1     7    0     0    0
REGINA              32    1    75865      229.40    0   0     9    1     0    0
ARAMIS              26    0    38347      123.84    0  35     0    0     0    0
QUERION             21    1    84644      600.58    0   0     0    0     0    0
VILIS               26    1    19094       90.54    9   1     0    0     0    0
LANTH               27    0     1210        3.44    0   0     0    0     0    0
RHYLANOR            32    4    43652      445.53    0   0    25    0     9    0
DARRIAN             29    3    21596      209.92    0   0    15    0     3    0
SWORD WORLDS        28    3    41311      399.54    0  26     7    9     0    0
LUNION              25    2    21261      378.09    0   1    19    0     0    0
MORA                26    3    51914      834.66    0   0    25    0    19    0
FIVE SISTERS        27    0     1048        5.25    0   1     0    0     0    0
DISTRICT 268        32    2    11688       77.87    0   1     0    3     0    0
GLISTEN             29    2    24643      286.97    0   3     1    1     9    0
TRIN'S VEIL         32    1    20779      473.23    0   0     1    0    15    0
Total              439   25   514470     4483.79    9  69   118   14    55    0
 
 
Deneb Sector                                       Early     Average     High
Subsector      Systems  Urb      Pop  Gross Prod   A   B     A    B     A    B
PRETORIA            31    2    13082       57.22    2   8     0    0     0    0
LAMAS               31    0    76375      151.87    0   0     0    0     0    0
ANTRA               25    0     3167       10.40    0   0     0    0     1    0
MILLION             22    1     3872       24.98    1   0     0    0     0    0
SABINE              27    2    15276      261.06    0   0     0    4     9    0
INAR                36    4    86631      893.35    0   0     0   14     0    7
DUNMAG              28    1    17047      124.94    0   0     0    0     0    0
ATSAH               24    2     8154      105.82    0   0     0    6     0    3
STAR LANE           30    1    95759     1064.57    0   0     0    0     0    0
VINCENNES           32    2    46393     1112.93    0   0     0    0    15    0
USANI               30    1    67542      680.30    0   1     0   65     0    0
GENIISHIR            4    0      755       10.13    0   0     0    1     0    0
GUF                 23    1   102580      863.59    0   1     0    0     0    0
ZENG                36    2   155707     2602.09    0   0     1   65     0    0
KAMLAR               6    0        1        0.00    0   0     0    0     0    0
VAST HEAVENS         2    0      515        0.00    0   0     0    0     0    0
Total              387   19   692856     7963.25    3  10     1  155    25   10
 
 
Corridor Sector                                    Early     Average     High
Subsector      Systems  Urb      Pop  Gross Prod   A   B     A    B     A    B
KHOUTH              29    2    71189     1117.45    0   0     5    1     0    0
KHUKISH             37    5    62390     1509.48    0   0     1    9    27   25
LEMISH              32    0     2561       15.64    0   0     0    2     0    0
THE NARROWS         30    1    16300      162.38    0   0     0    0     0    9
IAN                 23    0    97035       43.95    0   0     0    0     1    0
STRAND              20    1    18617       46.18    0   1     0    0     1    0
NAADI               11    0        9        0.01    0   0     0    0     0    0
UANTI                3    0      559        1.95    0   1     0    0     0    0
SHUSH                1    0        0        0.00    0   0     0    0     0    0
THE EMPTY VOID       1    0        0        0.00    0   0     0    0     0    0
ATU'L                2    0        7        0.00    0   0     0    0     0    0
KIVU                 6    0       93        0.83    0   0     0    0     0    0
TWO WORLDS           2    0      250        2.24    0   0     0    0     0    0
ASHISHINIPAR         4    0     4575       22.05    0   5     0    0     0    0
SINTA               21    1     5613       90.72    0   0     0    4     0    0
SASHRAKUSHA         45    1    11081      122.76    0   0     0    0     0    0
Total              267   11   290279     3135.64    0   7     6   16    29   34
 
========================================================================
 
    Insofar as ship sizes are concerned (for the figuring of ship
classifications). CT made large vessels likely and probable given the combat
and design rules. MT made warships top out at about 50k tons or less because
of the combat rules (Meson guns made larger vessels impratical except for
maybe showing the flag.... otherwise they appeared to be to fragile in
combat). With the advent of TNE maybe the balance has gone back to CT sizes
(or has it). So far this last is unknown till some designs get generated
and combat done.
    Plus RCEs and Regency ship classifications will differ because of the
big buiding gap. (Which also brings up building capacity... looking
at Oriflamme[?] as an example of sorts might be wortwhile).

------------------------------

End of TML Biweekly
******************
